“RETURNING THE CHURCH TO HER RIGHTFUL DUTY - MY MISSION” - REV. STEPHEN PANYA BABA, THE NEW ECWA PRESIDENT IN AN INTERVIEW WITH COUNTDOWN LAMENTS THE ROLES PLAYED BY CHRISTIANS IN GOVERNMENT.

INTRODUCTION

The General Church Council (GCC) of Evangelical Church Winning All (ECWA), on Tuesday 10th April, 2018 elected Rev. Stephen Panya Baba to lead the affairs of the church for the next three years. He will take over from Rev Jeremiah Gado, who served 2 consecutive terms of 3 years in the office. Before his election, Rev. Baba was the EMS Cross Boarders Mission Coordinator, as well as ECWA Television Coordinator. He polled 138 votes in the election that brought him in, beating Rev. Bitrus Sarma and Rev. Solomon Elisha who polled 95 votes and 21 votes respectively.

Rev. Baba will be sworn-in on 2nd June 2018, alongside other elected leaders; the Assistant General Secretary, Rev Alex Ibi; and the Treasurer, Dr. Kalu Mc. Umeh, who has been re-elected into office for another 3 year term.

The son of former ECWA President, Rev. Dr. Panya Dabo Baba, who served as President from 1988, came to know Jesus as his personal Saviour and Lord, when he was barely six years old. It was during the evening preaching session by the first convert in Gbagyi Land, an itinerant evangelist called Rev Yepwi Idako. He grew in faith and this was helped in a great deal by the Christian upbringing that his missionary parents gave him. Also, he was scripturally discipled during his Primary and Secondary School days because they were mission schools (Serving In Mission, or SIM is the founder of EMS and ECWA).

Countdown magazine met with Rev Baba in Jos, to congratulate him on his recent victory in the elections and to wish him well in his tenure as the incoming President of ECWA. We also asked for his thoughts on some contemporary issues in Christendom and the country at large.

 

INTERVIEW

CD: Can we meet you sir!

Baba: I grew up with my parents who made sure that we were exposed to the gospel at a very young age. We used to pray and read the Bible every day. But I think it was actually during the evening preaching/sermons, of an Evangelist then; the first convert in Gbagyi land; Rev. Yepwi Idako, who used to go around Karu, preaching, using the Gaslamp. It was during one of the preaching sessions that the preacher said Jesus was soon coming and the fact that no one who had a stain of sin in him will be able to go with Jesus to heaven, except the people that were washed by the blood of the lamb and made clean by the precious blood of the lamb. At the end, he made an altar call, I still remember very vividly that I raised my hand.

 

CD: That was what year sir?

 

Baba: I can’t remember the exact year, but I know it was when I was about 5 or 6 years old. And I went forward with my hand raised. I gave my life to Christ and he prayed over us. Even as I grew up, I remember that aspect of my second birth, crossing over from eternal death to eternal life. As usual, I grew up, I went to ECWA Transfer School at Karu. I did some classes there. My dad was transferred to Jos at one point, so I had to move to Jos and continued at ECWA Primary School, Gada Biyu, Jos.

After some time, my dad felt it was good for me, for discipline, exposure and so on to go back home. So I went back home, again to ANCHODILIAN School, where I passed to Secondary School and from there I went to ECWA Secondary School, Miango, where I did my Form 1-5. And from there I left to SBS, Zaria where I spent one year.

After one year at SBS Zaria, I had a hitch there, I could not pass. Through my in-law, Mr. Joshua Maikori however, I got admission to London School of Accountancy, where I went and did several Courses. The first was the London Chambers of Commerce and Industry Diploma in Accounting and Statistics, then I did Associate of Accounting Technicians Exams. From there I went on to REEDS, for my SCCN and qualified in June 1987 as a Chartered Association of Certified Accountants.

After that, I came back home for my mandatory Nigerian Tax and Company Law for ICAN and I qualified for ICAN too and then went on to serve my NYSC term, firstly with Panel Cafostan Kerr Forster Chattered Accountants in Jos. When I went for NYSC, I was posted to Abuja and they requested me to work with them during my Youth Service. I did my NYSC with them, and as soon as I finished my NYSC, I applied to several places, including the defunct LION Bank of Nigeria, which has now been taken over by Diamond Bank, where I started work, but I was there for just five months, because there were so many opportunities in the industry. I got so many openings in Lagos, but I decided to choose Nigerian Merchant Bank, where I resumed and worked for some years.

While I worked there, the strong calling on me to go into the ministry was becoming much stronger and clearer. At a point in time, I muted the idea to my father and said Look, I have a strong desire to go into ministry, but not so sure it was God, for several reasons. One was that, I had met so many missionaries and pastors who seemed to be in need of support and finances. So I felt I was in a position to support missionaries and so on. I felt what was more needed was the financial support of those who were in the ministry, not me going in necessarily.

Secondly, by my own understanding of God’s standard of righteousness, I felt I was not holy and qualified enough to go into the ministry, especially when I saw people who were more zealous and committed as it were, holier than me, not being in the ministry, I wondered why He should call me when He had not called those other ones. I did not really think I had near what they had spiritually. I really felt maybe it was just an interest or desire and it was not God.

 

CD: Sir, will it be right to say that, with the opportunities you’ve had before you were called into ministry and the kind of educational background in which you’ve been able to establish yourself; (looking at the way men of God of yesteryears, like you just said now, most of them died needing support; most of them did not have what we call leisure kind of lifestyle, they were all in one kind of difficulty or the other, and you now feeling the sense to go into that arena). Even when you heard the call and you were agitated about going or not (that you could even hear the call) at that time. Could it also be said that your father being a clergy and former leader in the ECWA setting, has played any role in your… ?

 

Baba: Number 1, later on as I got to discover, my father had been praying that God would call one of his children into the ministry, but he did not want to suggest it, let alone talk of forcing it on anybody, because he knew that if it was a calling, it had to be a calling. He did not even suggest it; he was just praying and leaving it to God to do whatsoever He was going to do. So when I met him, and told him that I felt as if God was calling me into the ministry, but I was not so sure, I had doubts, He said well, if you feel as if God is calling you into the ministry and you are not sure, why not take a first step, while you pray and see if it is God’s will. He suggested I could just go and start with part-time study in a Seminary, while I pray and he would help me pray too, to know if it was God’s will or not.

He was very sensitive and cautious about it; he knew that if you were not called into the ministry; may God help you face the frustrations that follow. And we as sons growing up with missionary kids, we knew to a certain extent, what was involved in the ministry. We had gone through it and we knew that ministry was not bread and butter. Ministry is not something that you just go into without counting the cost.

So when we discussed like that and he suggested I consider a part-time seminary because as it were, SIM Nigeria had a missionary, who had started Part-time Seminary in Jos. It was at that point that I decided to resign from the banking industry and to take up what was a lower paying job then in Jos, just so that I would be able to do part-time seminary with this SIM Missionary, then really prayed to know if it was God’s direction or not. I was being very cautious for the reasons I have already told you.

Moreover, as I said, I knew that ministry in ECWA, especially as an EMS, which was my focus, involved a lot of sacrifice and I had to count the cost and make sure it was really God who was calling me.

 

CD: Can you just give us a brief summary, how it has been, the school you went for Seminary, your first point of duty in the ministry, postings and the rest?

 

Baba: Well, it is interesting that before my final call, you know when I came and took up a job in Jos, and then at a point in time I told the Lord I was really fed up, staying in the decision valley. I really needed to know whether it was God’s will for me to go into the ministry or not.

The first indication was that, during the part-time seminary, I remembered the lecturer who came all the way from South Africa, Rev. Dr. Philip Stein, one time listening to me talk in the class, decided to call me and when I went, he said he had listened to my contributions in the class and that he has a reason to believe God has a very strong call on my life. And he asked me what I was doing about it, what are my plans for the future? I told him up till then I was still really praying, I was not so sure if its God’s calling or just my desire. However, I would appreciate his prayer for me. He really prayed out his heart for me then. We did the courses, finished and went back.

But before then, I had told the Lord: I just want one of these things; confirm whether He wanted me to go into the ministry or not. If He didn’t want me to go into the ministry, then He should bless me. Let me go back to the industry (Banking) and bless me financially so much so that I could support the ministry, the gospel and the mission work in a very big way; I wanted to do that.

After the first session of my part-time seminary, I told him I was really fed up in fasting and praying to know if it was His will that I remain in the ministry or go back to the industry. But before then, I had already made some applications back to the industry. I said God, just make it clear. The funny part was that I became more confused because, I took one week of praying and fasting and on the last day of the fast, which was on Saturday I remember, right here in Jos, I got a letter inviting me as Financial Controller in one company, a top rated company in Abuja, and on the same day, I got admission letter to ECWA Theological Seminary, so it became more confusing. I told God to make it clear, but it became more confusing.

I went to my dad and showed him the two letters and the interview was going to be the following week, either Monday or Tuesday, so I had to make a decision. Because once I went for the interview, I could give my word to them and then after a short time say I was going to Seminary.

My dad listened to me. He said God has been so good to us as a family, really good. He said the best way to show God that we are really grateful, the most tangible way is for one of us to go into the ministry. He said he knows that going into the ministry is not a joke. And he also knows that except God calls you, you don’t go into the ministry. For a long time, he had been praying and praying that it may please God to call one of us into the ministry, but he never suggested it.

My father saw it as an answered prayer, and now since I had come to him the second time, telling him that I feel so strongly about it, at this stage, he felt it as his duty to encourage me to go into the ministry. We were thirteen of us, one was late, so we became twelve. He said that if I went into the ministry, I would go as a tithe of the family to God, because God has blessed all of us. And he would be so happy. Although it is not the full tithe, because we are up to twelve, but at least, it’s a good tithe. (Laughs) Then he said he had been listening to me, and he knew that my problem is whether it is God or not. He said he wished God would send an angel to come and just tell us, and since God has not sent an angel, in the absence of that, he said we should look at it this way, “if it is God calling you and you refused to, because you want to make it big in the world, God can allow you and you will get all the money, make your name and be well known; but you will do it with a lot of pain and sorrow. And at the end of it all, after you’ve gotten what you think you want, like Jonah, you will have to go back to the original calling with regrets.” But he said if it was not God, that was calling me, and it was only my interest/desire, and I was about to make the biggest mistake of my life, then, “let me advise you my son, if you will make a mistake in life, make it on the side of God! Because God knows how to take care of you.” When he said that, I felt peace; I just told him I would not be going for the Abuja interview; I am going to the Seminary. If this is my greatest mistake, I am so happy I am making it on the side of God, and I can be confident that God will take care of me.

 

CD: from the first point of duty, to ECWA Maitama,

 

Baba: Yes

 

CD: from there, where next?

 

Baba: Just to tell you that when I went to the Seminary, I had discussed with my wife and I had made it very clear to her that I was going into Missions, even before we got married, and that I was going to EMS Missions. I told her very clearly that EMS missions involve going to the villages. Actually, I was thinking of coming to EMS being posted to a Mission field somewhere in the bush, and reaching out to the unreached there. In the first place, we had Sudan when it was still one country and the idea was that after our training, we would go to Sudan where we would be posted to somewhere like South Sudan in the rural and unreached area, for us to evangelise. However, when we finished, I came back and was interviewed by EMS and I was given an appointment. Unfortunately, the Sudan option did not work out; it was difficult to get travel papers then to go to Sudan.

The Garki DCC then heard about me and said since the Sudan option was not working, they wrote EMS headquarters and told them they could just second me to them for a brief period, to help do urban church planting while the work on my Sudan was going on; and that anytime the Sudan option was ready, they would just release me to go to Sudan. That was how I went to Garki as an urban church planter, seconded by EMS to work with Garki DCC. So right from the beginning, I was an EMS missionary. When I reported there, I was taken to a virgin land in Maitama, and I was shown the bush, that was where the church would be”. (Laughs) God took over right from there; we started clearing the bush and started church planting work. But then, because of the mission drive there, it did not take us too long for us to spread even at that young age of the church (we were between 30-50 in number), we started church planting in Kpaduma, Mabushi, Gwarimpa (which has now become the Grace Chapel). We released our spiritually matured ‘laymen’ in pairs and sent them out to start church planting. The Mission aspect again kept on coming up, to the extent that we started supporting EMS missionaries when we became a bit stable in Maitama. I spent a total of twelve years in the Maitama Church.

The turning point in Missions in Maitama was when we invited my dad to come and charge us more on mission for one weekend. When he came, he spoke about the theological aspect of missions, then on the last day, he went on to the practical situation of missions. At one point, he just turned to me and said: Stephen, how many missionaries are you supporting? At that time, we were supporting four missionaries, and I was quite happy to say four missionaries. Then he said: Well that is not too bad for a start. He did not say it was good (laughs). He said: if you had not been supporting missionaries in this church, I would have requested you now, to turn in your resignation letter to the church, because you went into the ministry so that you can become a missionary. For some reason, you came and started church planting, and the mission option has not worked out. And if you are not there on the field as a missionary, then you must make sure to support them who are in the field; otherwise your being here is completely useless. You would just have to resign and go to the mission field.

 

CD: This issue of mission sir, when you look at the setup of the church, I mean the body of Christ as a whole, many churches do not see mission as a primary reason for the establishment of the church. What is your opinion on this?

 

Baba: At the beginning when I was growing up, most churches were into missions. I think Nigerian Christendom became so much influenced later with the modern prosperity gospel message that laid so much emphasis on material acquisition and prosperity as a sign of divine approval, even progress and success in ministry; and not really the salvation of souls by taking the gospel to those who are yet to hear. Because of that, the negative impact on the church is, finding people who said they are called into ministry, but who are not really thinking in terms of winning souls and reaching those who are yet to hear the gospel. We have modern-day people, who want to be Presidents and Founders of Ministries and Churches, but are basically in the towns, reaching out to people who have heard the gospel over and over again. The wife of a friend who heard me speak about this problem we are facing once said some people are called just to ‘re-arrange Saints’. Thus a lot of pastors today are in the business of re-arranging Saints, rather than soul-winning and bringing people into the kingdom to become Saints. Today a new church comes up, the members of an existing church move to the new church; that is the happening place now. After some time, another one comes up with a new one, and then members move again.

Generally, the world is becoming more urbanised, we need to think seriously about other missions in parts of Africa and other parts of the developing world. There are still a significant number who are not being reached at all; they are very inaccessible rural areas, even in Nigeria. Why we have to be concerned about them much more than the township is that in the towns, many people are exposed to the gospel. I am not even talking about towns in places where the Christians there are very few, that is different. But in a town where there is significant Christian population, many are exposed to the gospel, through Television, social and print media. Much as it is though, we still try and witness to people in the town and urban mission is becoming more and more critical for various reasons.

 

CD: Sir, when you look at the thing that the church today has relegated to a corner, it is this issue of mission and evangelism; and the things they are placing in the agenda of the church today is PROJECT, some form of materialism, every other thing that is not spirit and soul-oriented. What do you think that posits for the church in the next ten to fifteen years, if the church does not re-orientate or retrace its steps?

 

Baba: Do you know what? The church will end up being a social club, where people gather to enjoy themselves, merry pat one another on the back and just go back home. And once the church stops doing missions, then it has lost its mission and purpose. So our prayer is that at least in ECWA church, the vision of our founding fathers will not die in our own time. That our pastors will continue to know that ECWA was planted through missions and it was planted for missions. The moment we deviate and allow ourselves to be sidetracked, distracted by modern entrepreneurial models of ministry and churches that do not have the drive and vision for missions, then we just become social clubs, at best, very successful entrepreneurial religious business. We don’t want that to happen in ECWA.

 

CD: Looking at the church in Nigeria, talking about nation-building, what is your opinion on the assessment of Christian impact in the evolution of modern-day Nigeria?

 

Baba: I am so much saddened about the lack of Christian impact in the present time because of what happened in the Christian history of this country sometime in the early 70s, when the Christian institutions were taken over. Before then, Christian Institutions produced graduates who were sound, not just intellectually but spiritually; and because of that, sincerity, honesty and integrity was so visible in all aspects of life of this nation.

Unfortunately, if you check the time the Christian Institutions were taken over and later on, the products of the subsequent graduates of the Institutions did not come out with that level of integrity, and the fear of God like the earlier graduates, which has really resulted in encouraging the kind of decadence that came into the nation later.

Really, the impact was great and I believe that it was one of the greatest factors that made this country for some time to run in the way that moved the country forward for some time before, but as a result of the interruption, everything fell apart.

 

CD: This singular factor you have just raised sir, is another disturbing aspect of today’s life, so to say. Since the schools were taken over, many if not all Christian denominations today are pursuing one education institution project or the other, ECWA inclusive. Anglican I know they are running AIA, towards which many of their members have said they are contributing money, ECWA is running Bingham University, and the fees, compared to the fees of those days when missionaries were running these things, were not profit-oriented missions, they were actually mission-oriented. Take Bingham for example, there has been one crisis or the other, where do you think the church is getting it wrong? 

 

Baba: There are many factors that could account for the high school fees being charged by Christian Institutions today. Having said that, I am not holding brief for any, and I don’t necessarily mean that these fees as charged are justifiable. Certainly, I don’t know in details how much each Christian Institution is charging and whether it is reasonable or not. However, I can explain to a certain extent why educational institutions at the moment will charge a bit higher than it was the case when missionaries were there. Basically, a lot of missionaries who came here were being supported from home and so they did not draw their salaries from the schools. Thus, the running expenses of those schools were very low and so they could afford to charge lower fees. Take for example, the ECWA Secondary School which I attended, a lot of the teachers were basically missionaries, and because of that the running expenses in terms of salary payments and so on were low. And they could therefore afford to charge lower then than now. But today, the full salaries is coming from the fees and not only so, missionaries in the past, apart from not taking their salaries from the institutions, used to actually raise funds for capital development in their schools. But now, you have a situation where most of the developments have to come from savings from the school fees.

I have heard some complainants that some of these institutions were actually built by contributions and offerings from church members. I cannot speak for other church Universities, I don’t know their operation, but in ECWA, I know to a certain extent that Yes it is true that members did their very best in contributing through offerings and all, but what came in was not adequate to achieve the purpose especially in terms of capital projects like university development. Since it was not enough, a lot of it has to come from school fees and other sources so that they are able to augment. For now, it is very difficult for them to charge very low school fees. But with time as the university becomes more stable and the infrastructures are there, I am sure, it will happen. Even now I heard that they have started some sort of scholarship scheme for ECWA members. With time, we are going to see that happening more and more of that, knowing that ECWA lays emphasis on missions, winning people for the glory of God. Then they may even be able to lower the fees generally, to make way for more people to have access to quality education.

 

CD: In the general view, is there a nexus between Christian calling and serving in secular governments as we have in the model of our country today?

 

Baba: Every Christian has a calling; different from the other. If you are in the government, that should be regarded as your calling. First and foremost, you should not see yourself as being there to make a living; you should see yourself working in government as a witness for the Lord Jesus. That is what Acts 1 vs 8 says: You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. And you shall be witnesses for me in Jerusalem and all Judea and in Samaria till the utmost part of the earth. It did not say there that you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my missionaries and pastors. Missionaries and Pastors are just some of the callings as well. Being a Civil Servant is a calling, being a Soldier is a calling, whosesoever God has placed you right now is a calling, and you are supposed to be a witness in that place, first and foremost. That was why I struggled for so long, I saw myself being in the banking industry as a calling then, all I wanted was for God to bless me so much, such that I could support those who were in the calling of missions and the gospel. And for the time that I was there really, most of my money was going on missions, to the extent that when it was time for me to get wedded, I just trusted the Lord to provide for me. (laughs)

 

CD: From Biblical times sir, we have people like Daniel, who actually distinguished themselves even in secular government. What is your general assessment of the performance of Christians who have been given opportunities to witness for Christ in our contemporary time?

 

Baba: The truth is that on a general level, we have failed the Lord. And I say ‘WE’, I am not talking about ‘them’ because it is supposed to be a joint thing. Those of us who are in the calling of missions, pastoral ministry are supposed to stand firm together with those who are in the calling of government, politics; and to pray with them. So if any one of us has failed in the place of their calling, we all share in the blame. And to be sincere, how many of us have really prayed as much as we have complained against our brothers who are in the calling of government and politics? So it is high time we realised that when our brethren in government and politics fail, we share in the blame. We have failed.

 

CD: When you look at the anti-corruption fight going on now in Nigeria, and the activities of this present government in the past three years, a lot of revelations have come up, both in investigating the previous administration and even some top serving members of this particular cabinet, most especially the immediate past SGF, who is a Christian, we have the former Chief of Defence Staff, also a Christian, Alex Badeh, we have Diezani Madueke also a Christian, among others. Do you think that CAN as a body, is playing enough regulatory role in making sure that all of us share the blame, do you think CAN is bridging that gap so to say right now?

 

Baba: I think when it comes to spiritual responsibility; the primary people responsible are the pastors. Because CAN is mainly a voice for the Christendom generally in Nigeria. And when things like this happen, I am sure it is a pain for the pastors of those responsible. Having said that, if you see the manner in which the anti-corruption war had been pursued, you will discover that, when it comes to prosecution, there are a lot of factors that are involved. And sometimes it’s so obvious that there is a lot of politics involved. So at a point in time, it is difficult to really know where politics stops and where anti-corruption fight starts, because it is obvious from what is happening that those who were even accused under the previous regime for corruption, once the new regime came on board, their cases were let go. Now, nobody should support corruption in anyway, but what we are saying is, if it is going to be a really anti-corruption war that will convince the populace, it has to be done across board and shown to be really sincere in its pursuit. So far, I think the people have not been convinced that the anti-corruption war is being fought across board.

 

CD: From your answer now, its like CAN is not really responsible in putting its members in check. Has proliferation of churches helped in the growth of churches in Nigeria or a clog in the wheel of the gospel?

Baba: Just to retrace event, in terms of individual responsibility, CAN operates at church level, to be a voice for the Christendom. I am just saying that really, it is the Pastors of these people who should really talk with them and counsel them. The Pastors should tell them the truth and get them back on the right way. More importantly, the Pastors must always uphold their members in prayers. If there is need to amend, let them make amends, either at individual or national level. CAN will be more concerned with the general, bigger picture.

 

CD: We want to look at the security situation in Nigeria, some people believe these killings are political, some other persons believe it is religious, the government says it is economic. What is your view about it sir as a leader in the church of Christ today?

 

Baba: A lot depends on the crisis that you look at. Some of them are purely religious, some of them are political, others are mixed. And you have a greater preponderance of one factor taking prominence over the other cases. So except you look at each one and analyse it before you know which one is religious, which one is political.

 

CD: Let us zero it to Plateau State sir, in the year 2007, it was the hotbed of violence, burnings, killings and ethnic clashes. Now that Plateau is no longer in the news, can we say Plateau was a political problem or the new Sheriff in town knows what the other Sheriffs did not know. What is making Plateau relatively peaceful these days compared to the PDP days?

 

Baba: Again, if you look at Plateau, it’s a very difficult situation. I will say that generally, the perception is that it is religious, because of the underlying tone. But like any other thing, you find some other factors being at play, like ethnic factors, political factors, so you cannot completely eliminate these factors being at play even in the Plateau crisis. So I cannot hold brief for the previous or the present government to say why there happened to have been crisis and lives were being lost. We thank God for the present Government of Plateau State and the relative peace we have been enjoying, but then, there are also places that hitherto had been peaceful coming under attacks of the Fulani herdsmen till date, like the Miango area or Irigwe nation. So then, the worrisome aspect is that the crisis is spreading to new areas.

 

CD: In your opinion sir, having been born in Nigeria and you’ve lived the greater part of your life in Nigeria, do you think we have religious problem, Christians and Muslims?

 

Baba: If it is the Christians (true believers) and the kind of Muslims that we used to have especially while I was growing up, who used to exchange food and gifts at Christmas and Salah respectively, there never used to be any problem. But unfortunately, because of the extreme brand of Islam that has been introduced, it has led to a lot of provocation between the two major religions. It is really difficult on a general level, to have the kind of togetherness and peace we used to have before. But what we can do is keep praying that God will help us to explore all means to ensure peace just as the scripture said blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the Children of God. So we try to do that as much as possible. But on individual level, you discover that Christians and Muslims are still relating, and in wonderful ways. I have heard series of testimonies from Christians who testified to how their Muslim colleagues have helped them much more than even their Christian brethren and of course from Muslims too, they have testified how Christians have stood for them for one thing or the other, helping them in their time of need. So we have the need to pray that God will just help us to diffuse the kind of toxic religion that the extremists have brought into the system.

 

CD: Talking of this issue of extremist in religion… Recently, there was a mild crisis in Abuja, these Shiites and the issue of Zakzaky. The government took this man to court, and he was granted bail, but the man has since been kept in detention. Just like Boko Haram issue started back then, this one too has begun to lead to face-offs. Recently, there was a clash with the Police in Abuja and a DPO was severely injured, some people are looking at it that it can escalate. What advice do you have sir? In this kind of situation where the government is supposed to be the custodian of the law, but it is not obeying the law.

 

Baba: What I will just say is to appeal to the government to obey the rule of law. Any country where the rule of law is not obeyed, anarchy is the end product. Thus let the government obey the decision of the court, so that there will be justice, fairness and equity.

 

CD: Very recently too, going to the international scene, the USA recognised Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel and opened the embassy. And since the crisis started in 1948, the one that occurred in the middle of May 2018 was the greatest, considering the casualties recorded. Do you see this crisis escalating beyond the walls of Palestine and America? Because Nigeria, I remember we had an issue far away in Pakistan and there was riot in Kaduna. Do you see that happening right now, with any opportunist/extremist group….?

 

Baba:  I pray not. But as to whether it will happen, nobody knows.

 

CD: So what is the spiritual implication of what Trump is doing right now in Jerusalem?

 

Baba:  From the scriptures, it wasn’t even Trump who decided that Jerusalem should be the capital of Israel. It was through one of the anointed servants of the Lord, King David, and he did it under the leading of God. And it was where God directed him to build the first temple, although it was actually built by his son, Solomon. And God said there, that I will cause my name to dwell there. So it had divine sanction. If you look at Jerusalem, the sand is not made of Gold, we have more beautiful trees in some parts of this country than you see in Jerusalem, but there is this scriptural angle that it is the place that God has declared and  divinely set aside as the capital of His own people, the Jews. And that is why it has become the focus of the entire world because, since God has made it so to say His dwelling place and of His name, of course, Satan, in rebellion against God is interested in the place and will want to work by all means to see that he causes a lot of crisis there, and bring a lot of problem for God’s chosen people. But we know that at the end, God is going to have his own way there. Remember that God infact, talks about the new Jerusalem, so you see that Jerusalem being the capital of Israel is a foreshadow of the heavenly one. We believe that during the millennial reign of Christ on earth, Jerusalem will be the capital of the world, its just a prototype capital of the real Jerusalem, the new Jerusalem that we hope we will all would be there; talking of the believers in Christ Jesus, where we shall dwell with God forever and ever. So it has a very serious spiritual significance, and that is why every believer in Christ will support Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel.

 

CD: So we can say Trump is fulfilling prophecy?

 

Baba: Oh yes, definitely. And there is no doubt that God is using Trump to fulfill His prophecy.

 

CD: Finally sir, sometime back early this year (2018), the Catholic Bishop Conference of Nigeria had a meeting with the President and they gave a Press release, and passed a vote of no confidence on the current administration. What is your rating of this current administration, vis-à-vis economy, security of lives and property, and appointments into the leading agencies that manage the outlook of the economy of the government? How will you in summary assess the three years of this administration so far?

 

Baba: So much left to be desired. It is far from what people expected. People are suffering and people are dying, the government needs to do far more than they are doing now.

 

CD: We want to once again congratulate you sir on your victory in the recent election and we are believing and praying that God will use your tenure as ECWA president, to impact the lives and mission of ECWA and its adherents and the church of God in general. As we pray for you, we will like to ask you sir, what can you say will be your focal point, your mission, God helping you as the ECWA President?

 

Baba: Revival, Evangelism, Missions for Soul Winning.

 

CD: One columnist who happened to be a two-term Elder in ECWA Wuse II was quoted to have said that the church budget for evangelism in six years was not up to 5% of total church income. Sir, is there anything different you will do from the way it has been done before you came in? What does that reveal with regard to the seriousness of the church on evangelism?

Baba: Generally, I have been praying to see how we can encourage the church to focus more on Missions and Evangelism for Soul winning and Discipleship. It is true the church has been trying. But definitely, we will pray to see if God would want to lead us in other ways, but the focus is, doing Missions and Evangelism for Soul winning and Discipleship in a more complete sense. Actually, when you talk of soul-winning, it does not just stop there because there are a lot of people who are interested in just getting converts. Beyond, we have to talk about discipleship, just to emphasise that we are not only interested in getting converts. What Christ told us to do is to go and make disciples of all nations.

By:Rev Stephen Panya Baba, Interview with Countdown.