The Most Reverend Josiah Idowu-Fearon was born in 1949. In his youth he trained for a short period as a soldier, but shortly after he was called into priesthood. He trained as a priest and was ordained as a bishop in 1990. 

He was the Anglican Archbishop of the Province of Kaduna, Nigeria and Bishop of Kaduna diocese till 2016. His interests in Christian-Muslim relations have always been at the forefront of his ministry. With a PhD in Islamic studies, this clergyman clearly has what it takes to mediate amongst brethren of both Faiths.  Known by many around the nation as “Mr. Dialogue”, for his work on Muslim-Christian relations, he is the co-founder of the Centre for the Islam and Christianity in Kaduna.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, The Most Reverend Justin Welby, conferred the award of Cross of St Augustine on him in 2013. During the occasion, Welby said, it was in recognition of his courage and vision in relentlessly promoting dialogue and peaceful reconciliation between Christians and Muslims, two major religions in a country that has suffered untold religious violence and insecurity. The presentation of the award which took place at a well-attended ceremony in the guard room at Lambeth Palace on Thursday, June 20^th 2013 was accompanied by a buffet lunch reception, followed by a Eucharist service for the Lambeth Palace community and other guests.

“Your extensive service to the Anglican Communion as a whole in the area of Christian-Muslim dialogue, and your ministry in Nigeria, promoting dialogue and reconciliation between Christians and Muslims, has been tireless, and you have displayed courage and vision often in the most difficult circumstances.” The Archbishop of Canterbury, The Most Reverend Justin Welby’s letter of conveyance said.

 In a letter he personally wrote to Idowu-Fearon conveying the conferment of the award, the Archbishop of Canterbury noted that the cross of St. Augustine is an award the Archbishop of Canterbury grants to people who have given long and exceptionally distinguished service to the Anglican Communion.

Countdown crew led by the Editor-at-Large, Mr. Taiyelolu Ojo and Assistant Editor, Barr. Kangyang Deme had the rare privilege of engaging ‘Mr. Dialogue’ in this very instructive interview on the 8^th August 2013 at the Bishop’s Court, Kaduna; please enjoy the excerpts……

COUNTDOWN: What I have read in some of your interviews Sir, your explanation of the God concept is one that fascinates me very much as Christians believe in the one true God. Can a Muslim really have access to the Trinitarian understanding of the God head, in short, is there any other way to meet God aside through Christ?

BISHOP: Very good question. You see we have one God. And there are different expressions of this one God. The Jews and the Muslims have the same understanding of this God. We also have an understanding of this God which is unique. Unique to the final revelation of God in Christ Jesus. Let me give you an example, the Quran says, “Say the Lord is one” Qul huwa allahu ahad (recites the Quran) “God in heaven”. It is Christian, it’s a Christian statement. Ok the Christians say, quoting Deuteronomy 6 “Hear ye oh Israel, the Lord is one.” We took that from the Jewish Bible we call the Old Testament. So the whole idea of God being a trinity is where the difference lies.  Let’s get back to Islamic theme, because Muslims will read this, and we are in the North. So we must look for areas where we can build bridges of understanding. We have creeds in the Christian Church, we have the apostle’s creed, we have three types of creed and apart from the apostle’s creed, the remaining two came out of a crisis situation, but Muslims also have their own creed, they call it “Shahada” that is from Hausa word “Shaida”, you know I testify, they say Allahu Samad (recites the Quran) the muslim will start like that and then, he will say, and this is where the creed begins Bismillah ir Rahman ir-Raheem (recites the Quran) [4] “There is no God, but God” La ilaha illa i-lah I ask you this is an interview. Do you believe that? As a Christian, do you believe there is no God but God?

COUNTDOWN: I do

BISHOP: Exactly, that is the first part of the Muslim creed, so as a Christian, you believe that. As a Christian I believe that. However, the distinctive characteristics of Islam is the second part of this creed, which goes on to say La I lla I-lah, then you will go on to say Bis mil Abi wal ibni wa Ruhil Quddus iilhu Wahid, that is again the distinctive characteristic of the Christian profession of this one God, you say “Bismil Abi” you say in the name of the Father and of the son “Wal Rubil Quddus” and then you say Allah Wahid One God. So it is one God. Please let no one deceive you that we have two gods, there is only one God, but we have two distinctive ways of approaching Him and expressing our understanding. What I say to my Muslim friends is that, my concept of Trinity is commentary, it even makes his own concept of the unity more understandable, so there are no two gods. There is only one God, but we have our different ways of expressing our knowledge and understanding of this God.

COUNTDOWN: Sir, on the nation, successive governments have not been able to implement the provisions of the Constitution since independence, would one be right to insinuate that the Nigerian constitution is weak? What is your take on that sir?

BISHOP: Our constitution is not weak. Rather, like any constitution in any part of the world, it is not perfect. Nigerians have a problem, and that one problem is lawlessness, that is our problem. If you want me to expand that a bit, I will say Nigerians from the leadership to the led we suffer from the spirit of impunity – ‘I will do it and nothing will happen’, ‘zen yi, mai za a yi’. That is our problem, and that spirit or culture of impunity is fed by corruption. The governor of my state, or the president of the country knows the law is there, but he does not have the courage to say ‘this is the law, let’s follow it’. ‘Why?’ Because he knows that if he does that, he will lose the next election and he wants to stay in power to continue to control the wealth of the country. That is the corruption we are talking about. That’s it, so all these commissions you set up, we go round, we speak to people, a lot of money is spent and when it comes to implementation, they kill it. They implement the ones that will not hurt, and you know what? As long as that continues, this is not a prophecy, it’s a statement of fact, we will never have peace in Nigeria, we will never have peace in Kaduna, this is my state, and we will never have peace. You know why? I killed your son, I’m indicted, and I’m walking free. Even as a Christian with the spirit of Christ in you, you have relations who are not Christians, each time they see me, the anger will ooze out, you know, look at Josiah who killed my brother’s son, you think if he has the opportunity he will not kill me? He will want to retaliate because, I was accused, I’m now indicted and nothing is happening and the governor cannot touch me, because he knows my influence. You can’t run, there will never be peace. Honestly, there will never be peace, because there is so much injustice. So just like the Lemu Panel, I was a member then, suggested this one and that one should be done, but government has not done any of them. Kaduna state judiciary commission, the commission fingered a lot of people, nothing has been done to them, they are still roaming around. We are human beings, so until we have a government that is willing to implement, there will never be peace.

COUNTDOWN: Sir, we are not privileged to really know what the content of this Lemu Panel report is, but one thing that has stood out for sure, since this crisis that has engulfed the north, is that you have remained an apostle of dialogue with the Boko Haram sect and with the state of emergency in place, do you still think there is need or there is room for dialogue?

BISHOP: You see, these Church Leaders, it’s not just church leaders, religious leaders because there are leaders from the Muslim side too. These leaders are politicians in the uniform of religious leaders, they are politicians.

There is no substitute to dialogue, you can quote me anywhere that I said, there is no substitute to dialogue. Those who are against dialogue are politicians and it doesn’t favor them. Two, especially as for the religious leaders, it is because they are ignorant of what dialogue is. First and foremost, dialogue does not mean compromise. You are a Christian, he is a Muslim, so dialogue means hold on to your faith, I hold on to my faith and if we genuinely hold on to our faith and traditions we see that there are many other areas we have cross fertilized  each other. For example the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion [recites the Quran]. If we have a dialogue, I will ask my Muslim friend, what does that mean he will explain to me and I will say no compulsion in religion? Why are you forbidding this person who wants to become a Christian? The Quran says you have your religion, I have my religion [recites the Quran]. I will ask him. Explain to me, if you have your religion, I have my religion, what stops us from working together. So, first and foremost, dialogue does not mean compromise. Two, dialogue does not mean, indirect evangelism, no. In dialogue you speak your mind, I speak my mind, this is what Christ tells me to do, this is what the Quran and Hadith tell me to do, and again you discover that they are virtually the same and am speaking as a student of Islam, I’ve been studying Islam as far back as if you care to know, my first attempt at studying Islam goes back to 1971 and I’m still a student. I have a Masters, I have  a PhD, I’m still a student of Islam, it doesn’t mean compromise, it doesn’t mean indirect or discreet way of converting, you see when you go to dialogue you do not go with a pre-conceived mind, that is the problem with religious leaders in particular. I’m going to dialogue so that man will become a Christian, I’m going to dialogue so that woman will become a Muslim, no, no, no. You see, in dialogue you don’t go with pre-conceived results, no, no, no, you have to be open. And you see that is why we are told in one of the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not bear false witness. I was given an award by the Arch Bishop of Canterbury, they call it St. Augustine’s Cross, because of my special commitment [commission] and special interest in the Muslim world. One of my colleagues said, they gave me that award because I was preaching Islam. I don’t preach Islam. It is not for me to start justifying how God has been blessing this ministry. I do not go to convert anybody because it is not my job. But, when I teach Islam, I always make sure there is a Muslim there, why? Because the Bible tells me thou shalt not bear false witness. Put it in your magazine, the Christian leaders, Bishops, Arch Bishops who call me names, that I am preaching Islam it is because when they talk about Islam, they tell lies. They tell lies, it is false witness because they do not present Islam the way Muslims present it, and I think it’s in Job, Job asked his three friends, why will you have to tell lies in order to defend God? This is Job 13:7, Job challenged his friends, why will you have to tell lies in order to defend God? That is what most of us Christian leaders are doing. I won’t do it, I teach Islam the way the Muslims say it is, and so, if you see it, you know what Islam is, because I’ve reached a stage where it will be impossible for me to start denigrating the Muslims, I cannot do it, because I know his religion and the challenge for me is to live by Kingdom Principles. I remember when I went ton Arman, the University of Jordan for a three- month Arabic language studies, my Professor asked me, she said, have you ever thought of becoming a Muslim, all these years you’ve been teaching and studying Islam, and I didn’t have to think about it, I said ‘No’. She said why, and I said because the salvation I am looking for, I have found in Christ. That as for me, Christ is sufficient for me. And if I want the Muslims to be where I am, let me tell the non-Muslims, this is what the Muslim believes. You see, that is the big point in Nigeria, especially amongst us who are from the North, we tell lies, we do not present the other person’s religion the way it is. The same thing with the Muslim scholars, they tell lies about Christianity, and I always say to them, listen to me. Because when they talk, I say ‘No’, that is not what the Bible is saying. The Sultan gave me an opportunity about two years ago, I addressed the Supreme Council for Islam in Africa. None of them could challenge, not one aspect of what I said, I think one of my friends who is the General Secretary for the Ansarudeen in Lagos, I think he’s an Ilorin Imam, he said, I don’t agree with Bishop Fearon. The Sultan said why? He said because I stopped at the third verse of chapter 112 of the Quran and I laughed. I said you know why I stopped, because that chapter speaks against the first question you asked, the Trinitarian concept of God. That chapter says God does not beget, He doesn’t give birth and He cannot be begotten.

COUNTDOWN: That is the conflict point?

BISHOP: Yes, but there should be no conflict because the way we understand God, it’s difficult to actually experience God as a unity without the trinity. That is why I keep saying, my concept, my New Testament concept, even though it is Greek, it is philosophical, and it’s a commentary on the Unitarian Concept of God. This is deep theology, they don’t have the academic background to understand these things, and of course it’s a question of faith, when you say God is one, God is three, it’s a dogma, it’s a statement of faith, there is no way I can explain the concept of Trinity, within any non-Christian circle who does not understand theology, not say I’m worshipping three gods. It’s difficult. So for me, dialogue is essential to our survival. So it doesn't mean compromise, it doesn’t mean disguised evangelism, it doesn’t mean lying. So, what is dialogue? The aim of dialogue should be one thing- to lead to an understanding. That is the aim of dialogue and if there is that understanding, then whoever is ready to be converted, let the Holy Spirit do it. You see, I always end when people ask me questions about dialogue, with the statement of Sir Ahmadu Bello, the late Sarduana of Sokoto. He met with Nnamdi Azikiwe when the Northern Party was to form a coalition, Azikiwe wanted them to work together and they were talking and explaining, he said, Ahmadu , let’s forget our differences and just work and Sarduana said ‘No’, let us understand our differences. That is the problem with us in the North, Christians and Muslims. We need to understand that the Muslim is different, the Christian is different. There is a major doctrinal difference and we need to understand. I don’t accept the Muslim-Jewish understanding of God because it is not complete. But I don’t have to quarrel, I understand, but I don’t have to accept, after all, we went to Aburi before the Civil War. We went there, we had dialogue, did it end the crisis? We still went to war. So let religious leaders in this country stop rubbishing the concept of dialogue. I pity a good number of us religious leaders, because we are not disciplined. You know, some Christian leaders are afraid of sitting down with Muslims because, by the time the Muslim asks questions, you’ll be lost, it’s a waste of time. I’ve listened to senior Church leaders say dialogue is a waste of time, it is not.

COUNTDOWN: Thank you very much sir, now on a last note sir, I’d still like to ask a fundamental question that we as young people think our problem as a nation is still tied to. It was the former military president of Nigeria, General Ibrahim Badamosi Babangida GCFR who first came up with the idea of New Breed Politicians, and from what we see in Nigeria today, recycling of old hands, the same results, doing the same things, the younger/ new breed politicians seem to have degenerated into some sorts of scourge.  Do you think sir, there is a need for a kind of arrangement where we have an age limit?

BISHOP: It’s not a question of age, you know my take on the boko haram scourge is very simple. Boko haram scourge is not primarily a religious thing, I maintain that, I know I’ve been called names by hungry church leaders, who want relevance and want money. I maintain it, even that of the Plateau is not primarily religious, it has to do with land, power, and who owns Jos. We know it, the problem with Kaduna State is not religious, it is the man who sits at Hassan Katsina House, the Government House, who is the governor? So we bring in religion into the crisis in the North East for me primarily has to with failure of governance and leadership. Unfortunately, the majority there are Muslims. I presented a paper at Arewa Media Forum, looking at failure of leadership. I spoke along this line. All leaders from the north, they don’t have the interest of the people who elected them at heart. And it is because of that, that we are having the scourge in the North East, these are young people, most of them are graduates, out of school, no jobs and they see what is happening in the South West. For example, look at Lagos, the governor there is a Muslim, Fashola is a Muslim, the governor of Oyo, Ogun and Osun are all Muslims. Before then, we have had Muslims as governors, our boys and girls in the north are now beginning to think ah ah, is it a different Quran they are reading? It’s therefore not a question of age, it’s a question of perceptive. How do we see leadership? I tell you as a student of Islam, most of our governors are not governing, their leadership role is not in accordance with the Quran and the Haddit, I’ve told them that. Because they don’t care about the people. So, for me, it may sound simplistic, no, some people may think it is that, it is what you call a reactionary approach in the North east. The young people are reacting to bad governance. And governance does not have to do with age. You can be old, you can be young, but if you take to leadership as a Christian and as a Muslim, I am telling you again there is no difference. What the Quran says, what the Haddit says, you can compare with what you have in the Bible, they’re exactly the same. So I don’t totally agree with Babangida who is talking of old people though, some of these old people again are being recycling I agree with you, we should stop it, giving opportunity to the young.

What will solve our problem, though not all, but part of it, in the north in particular, is to allow us to elect the people we can challenge. That is the kind of government or leadership we need today in the north, and until we have that, there will be other boko harams. I’m telling you, when people say “we want Mr. Ojo” and the party says no we can’t have him, we are going to give you Bishop Fearon, you don’t do things like that, people will react. There is no level playing ground, there is no freedom of choice. These are the problems we are facing in the north. I was reading in one the Newspapers sometime this week, somebody came and said to the present governor of Oyo state, “Look, there is no second opportunity in this state, its only one chance. So better you do your best now because, the next one you can’t come back.” I wish we could say that in the north, but we cannot. If we could, one party will not say this party will govern Nigeria for 60 years or is it 30 years, haba! So, it’ not a question of age, though age is important and I think those who want to govern us from now, they should be modern people, what we can call IT compliant, they must be IT compliant, not people who will hold on to pen and pencil. We are in technological era, look at the Prime Ministers from other Countries, these are people between ages 40-50 years. Nigerians need to think seriously.

And I think on a final note, because this is a Christian magazine, if our Muslim politicians and Christian politicians will follow the leadership style we have in these two religions, Nigeria will have very little problems. We will still have problems, but they will be much less, we will enjoy peace, but until they begin to follow what their books say, there will be no peace. Okay?

Thank you very much sir.

By:Countdown